Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Alex Recouso: I like to think of countries as a market. Most countries are de facto service providers.
You pay something in taxes and you get something back in services and infrastructure . The countries that are doing better right now are countries that Operate more as a company, than as a traditional country. So I definitely think that this market of countries will develop and we will see more offerings beyond citizenship by investment, but also residency programs, company incorporations and talent programs trying to attract sovereign individuals and global citizens.
[00:00:34] Mizter Rad: Hello, beautiful humans. Today, I'm joined by Alex Recouso. Alex is an entrepreneur on a personal mission to help people live where they're treated best. Now, I want you to envision this. I want you to envision a world in which the place where you're born, whether it's India, Pakistan, Guatemala, or anywhere else, not longer determines your freedom of movement. A world where you can select your passport based on your ethical principles and perhaps even your political beliefs, rather than having one imposed upon you, just because of your place of birth.
Now, this would be a world where you, the emerging country or low income country, citizen would not be burdened with restrictions on your personal development and your right to move around the world freely. For those that don't hold a VIP passport, this conversation is especially interesting. Alex, how's it going?
[00:01:57] Alex Recouso: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:59] Mizter Rad: Well, it's a pleasure to have you here, Alex. And I'm very sure you're enjoying Portugal. It's a beautiful place. But tell us a bit about yourself and why you've made it your mission to help people live Where they are treated best.
[00:02:14] Alex Recouso: Yeah um, originally from Spain. And I got into this thing called the flag theory at a really young age.
I think I was around 14 and for the ones that are not familiar with it. It's just this theory that says that you should plant your flags in different countries to maximize your freedom and your flags are things like your passport, your tax residency, your assets, your crypto assets.
And like I was saying, I got into it at a really young age and then I got into startups tech companies. I started my first startup when I was 18. And then I moved to the U. S. All of my life, I thought that I wanted to live there. But then when I finally moved to the U. S., uh, for, for college, I realized it was not the place I, I wanted to live in.
I realized it had many problems. And I realized also that the people there were not looking at what other countries were doing the right way. Places like Singapore, like UAE, like Switzerland. And so I started looking into options that I had in places where I could go live in. And I found out that Portugal was doing this digital nomad visa.
And that was the moment I decided to start Baseflow. And, fast forward to some months later we merged with Nation Three who were building a Network State. We can talk about Network States later if you want to. And right now I'm one of the founders of the Network State Company and we are creating Baseflow which is a platform to a streamlined citizenship by investment programs.
So like you were saying so well in the, in the introduction. People can invest in a country and become citizens so they can really be part of a country where they are aligned with with their values and their beliefs in a country that Ultimately, treats them, well,
[00:04:08] Mizter Rad: okay, so let's start step by step. So what is Baseflow doing again?
Repeat that last part because I think that's important.
[00:04:18] Alex Recouso: Yeah, right now, we are a platform is streamlining, uh, citizenship by investment programs.
We are building the world's fastest, most efficient experience for citizenship by investment programs. For the ones that, are not familiar with citizenship by investment programs, those Progress that allow you to invest in our country, either by real estate or investment in a government fund, buying government bonds or making a deposit in a bank account in the country.
And they fast track your application to become a citizen and get a passport from that country. And if you think about it this is really convenient both for, for the host countries because they attract talented wealth individuals. They attract foreign investment. And they can develop further the country. And also for those individuals, especially for the ones that were not lucky enough to be born in a place with a strong passport that gives them access to technological communities, scientific communities and generally, you know, opportunities in life.
It's a really good way to, to kind of be able to choose what country you want to be part of.
[00:05:25] Mizter Rad: So give me an example of one of those countries where you can buy a passport by investing in, in maybe a bonds or a piece of land.
[00:05:34] Alex Recouso: I mean, technically you are, you're not buying the passport. Technically, what you're doing is you're investing in the country and they grant you citizenship.
And there are a bunch of countries in the world that have these sorts of programs. For example, in, in Europe you have Austria. You also have golden visa programs, which are kind of citizenship by investment programs, but they also have some residency requirements. So they would make you a citizen
after you are a resident in the country for some years. But the most popular citizens by investment programs by far are the Caribbean ones. And they are the ones we are working with right now. There are five countries in the that have citizenship by investment programs Santa Lucia, Sankitsa, Navis, Dominica, and Granada.
[00:06:18] Mizter Rad: Interesting. Tell me something. How much Do I have to invest or put aside for one of the citizenship by investment programs on one of these Caribbean islands?
[00:06:31] Alex Recouso: That depends a lot both on the Caribbean country that you want to do this, this program, also on the route that you're choosing. If it's either real estate or government bonds or a government fund or a private enterprise project, and it also depends on the number of applicants.
So if you are, you know. Uh, just yourself as an applicant or if you are bringing along your spouse, your parents, your Children. So it depends on all of that. So it can vary a lot. But these programs, the cheapest ones or the ones that require the fewer amount of investment usually start at around 100 K.
[00:07:09] Mizter Rad: Okay, so 100 K. So basically, this is not for... this is for individuals that have a good amount of money saved in the bank.
[00:07:18] Alex Recouso: Or individuals that having the passport that they currently have is really having a negative impact in their lives.
Like imagine, being born in places in Africa or India, and you really don't have a visa free access to many places in the world. Like I said you can't access many opportunities. So for those people, they generally feel this pain a lot more than someone, who was like enough to be born in countries in Europe.
So in those cases, like you would be surprised that people that are not that wealthy really want to do these programs just because they will have a big impact in their lives.
[00:07:57] Mizter Rad: Okay. So, but I mean, let's put aside the amount, cause I think the amount is, is considerable. Especially when you talk about someone that maybe lives in Africa and India and has a specific purchasing power in their local currency. 100 K dollars is quite a lot of money.
But let's, let's assume that person has saved and has sacrificed for the last 10 years and has been able to, to, to accumulate an amount of money that lets them buy a citizen. Yeah...
[00:08:28] Alex Recouso: Sorry to interrupt, but I think, that's a common misconception because currently, for example, there are many people in India that are working remote for U. S. companies or remote companies that pay U. S. paid salaries and, if they work in tech. They might be earning like I don't know, 300k a year or amounts like that. Right now I think the world we live in, you are not constrained by where you come from or where you are living to the amount of money that you can make.
So you would be surprised, there are many talented people in Africa, in India, in places that traditionally didn't have so much purchasing power. But right now, thanks to remote work, these people that are talented, they actually, have the purchasing power to to do programs like this.
[00:09:17] Mizter Rad: So what you're saying is that as remote working becomes more and more popular and assuming that people in these developing countries are increasing their purchasing power on a global level, these idea off citizenship by investment will grow with that. That's a possibility.
[00:09:38] Alex Recouso: Yeah, 100%.
I think, remote work democratized the access to a global income for talented individuals. And I think, there will be a mismatch between these individuals that are talented, that are already making, global salaries and their freedom because unluckily, where they were born these countries, they don't have such visa free access or they don't have, like we're discussing, a great infrastructure or whatever.
So there's a mismatch between their passport and actually their net worth, their talent the business opportunities they want to access. So I think, it's definitely a growing market.
[00:10:16] Mizter Rad: Where are Baseflow's clients coming from mainly
[00:10:19] Alex Recouso: we have people from all around the world. People from the U S. People from places in Africa. Like I was saying, for example, in Nigeria, there's a really strong tech community.
There are many, many people there that are either software engineers or working in tech or a startup founders that are doing this sort of programs. Also people in India. There's actually, many people who migrated already and they're on a visa. So they're constrained by that visa and they want you to get a passport that that gives them this freedom.
So, you know, really from all around the world. But I would say those are, the biggest markets, the U. S. And then, obviously Africa, India.
[00:10:55] Mizter Rad: Okay, I have two questions here. Why would an American person want a passport from San Lucia or Antigua and Barbuda, for example?
[00:11:03] Alex Recouso: In the case of Americans, I mean, I'm not a U. S. citizen, so probably, a U. S. citizen that is doing one of these programs would be more suitable to answer this question. But I would say, from what I've talked with Americans that have done these programs, it's mostly as a backup plan, because, you know, these programs don't really give them access to other countries besides Russia and China. For example, the Dominica passport gives you access to China. So if they want to travel visa free to China, they can do it with a Dominica passport. They can't do it with a U. S. passport. But it can also be, as a backup plan in case, the U. S. government becomes more authoritarian or things like that.
They can always you know, they have another passport. So they don't have to worry as much. And also...
[00:11:55] Mizter Rad: It's a plan B basically.
[00:11:57] Alex Recouso: Yeah. And in some cases it can also be for, Americans that are no longer living in the U. S. And as you might know, the U. S. has citizenship based taxation.
So they tax you on the base that you are a citizen, not a resident. So even if you don't live in the U. S., you still owe taxes to the U. S. So many Americans that are not living in the U. S. anymore, they get one of these passports until they get another passport where they are living or even they go to live to one of these countries.
[00:12:27] Mizter Rad: So they renounced the American passport just because they don't want to keep paying U. S. taxes. Because they're not living in the U. S., which is ridiculous, by the way, in my opinion, but maybe it's the only country that does that at the moment.
[00:12:41] Alex Recouso: There are, there are, there are a bunch of countries that have citizenship based taxation, but the U. S. is the, the most famous one, definitely.
[00:12:48] Mizter Rad: LIsten so the, the second question, while you were talking, the second question I had was, uh, I want to understand the process. I want you to go step by step in the process off getting a citizenship by investment. One of these programs. Let's let's say San Lucia on.
I'm from Nigeria. How does it work?
[00:13:10] Alex Recouso: Yeah. First of all, I don't know. It really changes. If you are doing it through Baseflow or if you are doing it the traditional way. Because the traditional way I would say that it's way more sketchy because first you would need to find, a government agent that is allowed to process your application for these citizenship by investment programs.
We already have our government agents that we can connect you with. That are using our platform to, to streamline the process. But then once you are into the process, the first thing that they're going to be required is to do, a very strong due diligence because these countries, obviously they don't want to, welcome criminals or any person who doesn't have a clear criminal record.
So that will be, the first step that is like very important that you have to be, not a criminal and you need to have a proof that you acquired your wealth in a lawful way, basically. So, you know, once, once they are sure of that, then just start submitting different documents like, birth certificates, proof of criminal records, like I said, marriage certificates and all of that.
And like I was saying, this process really varies. If you are doing it the traditional way, you need to file Excel sheets just to make sure that you have all the information required. You need to file, hundreds of pages in PDFs then send them over WhatsApp, which has huge privacy concerns.
And what we do so people better understand it is we just have this efficient, safe platform where you can submit everything. And in some cases we actually help you gather all of these documents that you need. After you have, you know, basically all your information, all your documents ready, the government agent will approve your application.
After that, you can make the investment. Like I was saying, either real estate or government bonds or government funds or a private enterprise project. And after that, they check that your investment is done, that is done in the right way. And essentially you become a citizen.
[00:15:04] Mizter Rad: How long does it take to become a citizen?
[00:15:06] Alex Recouso: It depends. The fastest processes that I have seen take, as little as three months, they can take, six months. And in some cases even up to a year. So it's not like a super fast process, mostly because of all the due diligence that these government agents do to make sure that they are welcome, welcoming talented and wealth individuals. And not criminals. So that's a very important part of the process. And it also really depends on how fast you are able to fill all the documents, all the information. And that's also how We help people do these programs faster.
[00:15:43] Mizter Rad: And do you think these countries in the Caribbean, like Dominica and Antigua and Barbuda or St. Lucia, do you think they have, do you think they discriminate somehow the origin of the applicant? If someone comes from the U S it's treated differently as someone coming from Nigeria, for example.
[00:16:03] Alex Recouso: No, not at all.
I really think that they all, the only discrimination that they do is based on whether you have a lawful origin of your wealth and you have a clean criminal record. And that's what they care about. They care about, you know, attracting talented and wealthy individuals. They don't care about whether, those individuals are coming from Nigeria or the US. Because in the end what they want to do is to attract, like I was saying, they want to improve their citizenship base.
They want to attract more people and they want to attract foreign investment. So that's, that's what they care about. And they care about not attracting the wrong people, which has been the case in, for example, the nineties and so on, when these problems started.
[00:16:45] Mizter Rad: So it Happened before that they attracted some drug Lords and they didn't know that.
[00:16:50] Alex Recouso: There are cases when, when these programs started and that's actually where, the bad reputation that the industry has in certain spheres comes from. That it was, it was the case that, maybe because they didn't have enough resources to make sure that these people were coming from a clean background and all of that that, some people fell through the program and, later they found out that they were not lawful citizens. And, I guess that's why some bad reputation comes from.
[00:17:21] Mizter Rad: Tell me something. Why are you focused on the Caribbean islands?
[00:17:25] Alex Recouso: I think the Caribbean has a great potential of attracting all of these talented and wealth individuals worldwide. First of all they have a great culture. They are very welcoming. But also they have, big upside.
Like we were discussing before, before the call places like, for example, Montenegro and all of these places that I like to call the rising world that's a concept that I like way better than developing countries and countries. I like to think of it as the rising world and the declining world.
And you have places that, for example, like the U S that are clearly declining and they may decline faster or slower. Also Europe in general. But then you have, places that are rising. And for example, the Caribbean, I think it's one of those places. You have also places in Southeast Asia, Singapore, Philippines.
You have places in Europe I don't know, Montenegro, uh, Switzerland, Luxembourg, that are clearly rising and that are attracting these talent and these foreign investment. And I think the Caribbean is one of those. And also I think, they are open enough to, to work with people like us that are bringing the technology to help them improve these processes. To help them do it faster more efficient and also make sure that, the due diligence is better. And they have this open mindset to collaborate with us than, for example, in places with Portugal that are big countries that have huge bureaucracy and that are not so forward looking is way more difficult
[00:18:56] Mizter Rad: I want to go deeper into what you call the rising world and the declining world in a bit. So basically what you're saying is that the caribbean islands are not as complicated and bureaucratic as Let's say European countries like Portugal or Greece, and that's what makes them, makes them attractive in a way for you and for people that want to acquire a citizenship by investment.
[00:19:21] Alex Recouso: Yeah, especially because they have very clear requirements in terms of, uh, their, their citizenship by investment programs. And also they are smaller, so they have, you know, less bureaucracy. So that. Allows them to, to collaborate in a faster, more, more efficient way with people like us that, that want to bring innovative technology to the process and want to help them.
And also I think they are more forward looking. And this relates to the concept of, the rising world and the declining world. And I think they are definitely, the rising world. There's this really cool graph around the internet about the millionaire migration, and you can see, where millionaires are moving.
And I think that really correlates with the future success of the country. So probably like in 10, 20 years, the place that are going to be better off are the places where millionaires are moving right now, the places where they are investing in their economies and they are helping to develop and to rise.
So I think, place like the Caribbean Singapore, UAE, Montenegro. Those are the places that are going to do well in the, in the long term.
[00:20:22] Mizter Rad: Okay. That's interesting. I saw, I saw one of your tweets some months ago and, uh, it kind of went viral and it shows the millionaire migration or migration to the U S or people coming into the U S or millionaires coming into the U S compared to places like the UAE, Singapore or Israel, and you showed clearly on that tweet that the U S. Millionaires coming into U. S. Decreased by a factor off. I think it was 10. And while these other three countries increased more than twice sometimes. Why do you think that metric is important? Why did you pay attention to that?
[00:21:06] Alex Recouso: For me, it's uh, you know, good performance indicator for the future success of the country.
If you think about it, I think a great share of the success of the U. S. was due to immigrants that were, talented and wealthy, wanted to move there, and you can see, really the change before and after the pandemic and all of this trend of remote work and all of these trends that I think are kind of converging right now. So that's what I wanted to show with this tweet. That, Before the pandemic in 2018, there were 10, 000 millionaires moving to the U. S. every year. And now in 2023, the projection was 1, 500. So, yeah, like you were saying, uh, you know, almost, almost 10x less, uh, millionaires moving to the U.S.. And I think that's a great indicator of, of where the general trend is going. Because, First, the smart capital decides not to invest in the country.
And then, that's where you start noticing second order effects of, not having so much capital available. And then, companies, startups starting to be created in other places and those, companies grow. And then five to 10 years the US might not have the biggest companies in the world.
I think that honestly, I think that's what's sustained in the US right now. It's their private sector. They have the biggest companies in the world. But the problem with that is that if you don't attract talented individuals that they start those companies, maybe 10 to 20 years from now, those companies are going to have been started in other places.
And those other places are going to have the leading companies in the future. So for example, if the next Google is started in Singapore or in UAE, then 20 years from now, that is the place that is going to be.... to be better off.
[00:22:55] Mizter Rad: ANd why do you think that is happening? Why do you think people are choosing the UAE or Singapore or millionaires, as opposed to the U. S.
[00:23:05] Alex Recouso: I mean, I think there are many factors in play. Uh, one of those that I already mentioned is that, with the pandemic we had all of these remote work trend that kind of a slowdown after the pandemic. But it's still I think it was before and after because it allowed so many people to basically make a living from anywhere in the world.
And people realize that you don't have to be it in a certain place to do what you Like especially if it can be done, remotely in industries like tech, that you know are the future. I think it's clearly industries like crypto, like AI. I think those are the future and those can be done remotely so, you know, well
[00:23:44] Mizter Rad: hold on.
Hold on one second, the future Of what? Because tech and crypto, I agree that they're part of the future, but there's just definitely more industries. Now that everything may be connected through tech more and more. I would agree with that, but I'm not sure why you say that tech and crypto are the future.
[00:24:06] Alex Recouso: I mean, if you look at the biggest companies in the world probably 9 out of 10 are tech companies. Maybe there's Saudi Aramco, Berkshire Hathaway, which is like holding company, but then the rest are tech companies. So I think it's obvious that tech companies are the future. And within tech: crypto and AI, they are, the They are the sectors that have the most potential.
[00:24:28] Mizter Rad: Well, well, that's that's debatable.
When you talk about basically what you're saying is in some way or another, immigrants bring progress into a country. So when you look at this immigration trends, and since you are within the industry An expert in the topic.
How do you think this would look like in 50 years from now?...
[00:24:52] Alex Recouso: I mean, how I see it is, using again this lens of the rising world and the declining world.
I think that, just keeping with the trend, unless, we have a black swan or a really big change globally that, this trend is going to continue and fewer people are going to want to live in the US and probably, in other places with a better quality of life. Better access to health care. Better opportunities and, places that actually treat their citizens in a good way and they give them good services for their taxes .Is just, it's also important to think about it in terms of nOt minimizing taxes, but deciding where you want to pay taxes and what are you getting for your taxes? And, you know, for example, based like the U. S. Super high taxation, but then you don't see reflected in their infrastructure or their safety. And I think that, you know, global entrepreneurs and investors and, you know, people like that are going to lead this movement first moving to places like you were saying, Mexico, Singapore, UAE. Places that you can really, focus on your thing and do your thing and thrive.
And then after that like I was saying, probably in 10, 15 years from now we're going to see that these places really have attracted like minded people, talented people, wealthy people and are doing well because they will have, probably big companies that create employment and that create prosperity for the country.
[00:26:21] Mizter Rad: So I'm assuming here that when you say that generally the U S has. High taxation and don't treat people right. I'm assuming this is a generalization and the U. S. is a huge country, of course, has a very diverse ecosystem. Where, as you know, some regions after the pandemic got even more interesting and powerful. Also for techies.
Same with Mexico because you can say that Mexico is a great place and part of the rising world, but you can break Mexico into pieces and there might be some areas where you cannot even walk out in the streets. Same with Colombia. Same with a lot of countries in Latin America.
So I understand where you're coming from I just want to make that clarification. I don't know if you agree with me that you are generalizing and not assuming that the whole U.S. behaves equally or the whole Mexico behaves equally.
[00:27:20] Alex Recouso: I mean, I would agree it's not equal, but I would say that is along this same guidelines to say, so like
[00:27:30] Mizter Rad: it's the macro trend, let's say,
[00:27:32] Alex Recouso: yeah, like, if you think about it, yeah, you might have states like Florida who are a bit more friendly, they want to be more, more friendly to tech they want to be a bit more tax friendly, but in the end it's underneath.
This huge, federal government. Agencies. So it's the same as, for example, in the European Union or even, for example, where I'm from in Spain, you might have some autonomous communities that really want to be, more open. They want to be, they want to have freer markets and all of that.
But in the end, it's all under Spain. So if the main government decides that or the central government decides that things are not going that way, things are not going to go that way. And the same for the European union level. So in the U.S. It's all under federal government.
So that's why I'm also like very bullish on countries that have a full sovereignty and especially smaller countries that can move faster and that can make their own decisions. Like I was saying, places like Montenegro that are not inside of the European union, Switzerland or even these Caribbean countries that Are part of the commonwealth.
But they really have a lot of autonomy in the decisions that they want to make and how they want to govern their countries essentially,
[00:28:46] Mizter Rad: I agree with you partly. But let me push back on that because so in theory, let's say a country like Montenegro, it's a sovereign country. When you look deeper into it, you understand Montenegro is, for example, part of NATO.
And so you could question is Montenegro truly a sovereign country. And I don't want to go here into the rabbit hole, but it is in a way a philosophical question that is important to ask. And it always makes me wonder whether there's truly a hundred percent sovereign country in the world we live in at the moment.
[00:29:25] Alex Recouso: 100 percent you know, if you start getting like more theoretical and more philosophical.
You could argue that, you know, since Montenegro, for example, is inside of the NATO, uh, you know, they are relying on NATO's military power to, to be sovereign. So they are not fully sovereign, but I like to think about it on a more practical level. Uh, and so, you know, uh, if on a practical level, you are sovereign to make these sorts of decisions and maybe, you know, you'll get some pushback from the, from the big powers, but in the end, uh, you know, you are sovereign to make these decisions, then I would call that sovereignty.
But yeah, of course, like if you go to a full, theoretical meta level it all depends on the ones that have the guns, right?
[00:30:08] Mizter Rad: Right. Okay. I see. I see where you're coming from. Okay. Let me ask you the following because of course I understand that one way of raising money. I talked yesterday with the president of Liberland
as you probably heard about Liberland. They're raising money by in a way selling passports, right? So you contribute with sweat or with money. And there is a threshold. And if you come, if you go above that threshold, you get your passport. Or if you work a certain amount of hours, you also get the right to hold a passport.
Now, Liberland is a new country, right? They're trying, it's a startup country, so to say, a startup city. They're trying their best to, to grow. But in general, it's not only Liberland that raises money like that. It's also, as you mentioned before, Caribbean islands like San Lucha or Antigua and Barbuda, Dominica, et cetera.
So they're raising money like that. And I believe it's pretty easy to, or them maybe to say, okay we look at our GDP. Last year, and let's say 30 percent of that was from selling citizenship by investment. Now, do you think now you tell me if that's, if that happens or not, if you think those countries have those numbers, but my question is, do you think they also measure the GDP that is brought in by those individuals that purchase those passports? Or those citizenships?
[00:31:41] Alex Recouso: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, C certainly they do and I think, that's completely fair. I think also Liberland's model is also a really smart one. I actually met Vit in Montenegro. He's, he's great. He's awesome. And I think, that's where the future of governance is doing. Of, countries becoming more of service providers and people being able to decide where they essentially want to pay taxes for these services. So I think, you know, it's just a very forward looking way off of doing it. But in the end, these funds and this foreign investment goes to helping these countries develop, have better infrastructure, and in the end, help the people that are from there and that are living there. So I think it's a good thing.
[00:32:27] Mizter Rad: So tell me more about that idea off living in a world where countries Are almost almost like almost treated as a service provider. Nowadays, I generally live in Germany.
I'm in Greece right now, but I'm based in Berlin. And in Berlin, you have the option. I think we talked about this with Eche Emole. From Afropolitan. Basically, what we were saying is that in Germany, you have a You have the possibility of choosing different energy providers. So if you don't like one, you just change to the other.
And then there is another calling you next day, offering you a cheaper service. And then you're able to choose this. You have that freedom as a consumer. But as a citizen, you don't have the freedom to choose your citizenship, your passport . But what you're saying here is that. You think you believe that in the future, this will be more and more usual, common.
[00:33:25] Alex Recouso: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for example, Patrick Friedman has this concept of dynamic governance, dynamic geography, sorry. That is that countries are better off competing with each other. So if you think about it, if you allow people to more easily choose where they want to not only be citizens, but also be residents, where they want to incorporate their companies, countries will compete with each others with each other.
And you have examples, throughout history, like for example, Delaware. being the most friendly to companies and, all the companies going to, to Delaware and then Delaware becoming hyper specialized in company incorporations. You also have, examples of, for example, public services, like for example, the mailing service here in Portugal, which works way worse than, for example, Amazon deliveries.
So our private company is doing it better than the government. And, I really believe that once you open competition in this space. , will be better for everyone because I generally think that free markets are good for progress. And you have, great projects, like for example, Afropolitan which I'm also a citizen.
And I say hi to, to Afropolitan citizens that are listening to this. And I think Eche is doing a great job and, we're going to see like many Projects like this that are going to just, increase the offer of governance that people have available and they will be able to choose where they want to be part and choose countries that really align with their values.
[00:34:47] Mizter Rad: I like the concept and I like, I like the theory. I like the idea. I Don't understand yet how this becomes practical. Do you have an example of, of a teeny tiny thing that is happening that you see that is part of this whole idea of citizenship or country as a service better?
[00:35:09] Alex Recouso: Yeah. For example you have Honduras.
Which developed this special economic zone using Paul Romer's concept was a Nobel prize in economics, I believe in the year 2000. And they just developed, the special economic zone that they let a private company administer and it's called Prospera and people just pay an annual fee to, to be citizens of Prospera.
They can move there. They can, incorporate companies there. And I think it's a really cool proof of concept. For all of this idea of new countries and new nation states and special economics. Also, I think, they did a great job in improving the concept.
[00:35:47] Mizter Rad: So Prospera is in Honduras and it's almost for people maybe to understand easier, would you say that It's almost like a club membership.
[00:35:57] Alex Recouso: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you think about it, like, if you go to the meta level, like, countries are, like, club services, right? If you don't think about the fact that you are at, you adhere to a country's membership once you are born, because, they make you adhere to it, but then, if you decide to move to a country and be a resident there, you're basically becoming A member of the club and you pay membership every year, which are your taxes and you receive some benefits.
And if you think about it on a meta level that they are members is right.
[00:36:27] Mizter Rad: Yeah. And that makes me think actually on a community level and an ethical level, it makes me wonder if we are creating a world without borders in this case, because that's sort of the philosophy behind, but only for the, for the richer.
Only for the people that can have access to, for example, the club in Prospera, or that are able to pay 500k for a golden visa in Portugal. Or be able to invest in a bond in Saint Lucia. And you mentioned already that you have already proven that there is people in Africa or India that are able to access these things.
But these are people that in a way are part of the richer. I wouldn't even say middle class of those countries. I would say maybe upper upper level classes in those countries. So I wonder if we're creating a world that is That has no borders, but it's only accessible for for the richer. What do you think about this?
[00:37:29] Alex Recouso: Yeah, that's that's a great concern. And I think, currently, it is indeed only accessible to the top performers, like I was saying, the very talented, the wealth individuals that are able to access these programs. This might be controversial, but I don't think it's a bad thing in the short term because generally all innovations at first, they are expensive.
For example, if you think about Tesla, developing green energies, developing an electric vehicle at first, it was only accessible to the very wealthy people that could afford it. And as they progressed in the, in the innovation life cycle, this innovation became available to more people.
So I think that I would agree that currently it is only available to, to, like I was saying very talented, very wealthy individuals, but I would say that's because we are very early in the, in this kind of innovation in the market of, countries to say so. But as we progress, we're going to see probably like more offers that got there to, to people in all socioeconomic in the entire socioeconomic spectrum.
[00:38:37] Mizter Rad: Interesting. And so that has to do a lot with what you. Or maybe not a lot, but somehow it is related to what you talked about, this idea of the rising world versus the declining world. And I can imagine that there's a lot of factors that come into you determining or thinking or assuming or projecting that country is part of the rising world or the declining world. Can you talk can you elaborate a bit more about this idea of the rising world and the declining world and what's your personal observation from your perspective. From your life experience.
[00:39:16] Alex Recouso: Yeah, I mean, my, my personal observation is just that there are countries that are really forward looking and they care about attracting talent and attracting wealth and treating their citizens well. And there are others that maybe because they did well in the past, they don't care as much about staying competitive in the market. And, I think that like I was saying, many trends are converging right now that are going to create a more dynamic world where people can move freely and can have higher leverage to decide where they want to live, where they want to pay taxes, where they want to incorporate companies.
So these countries that are not forward looking and that are not thinking about how they can stay competitive in a global landscape are going to do worse. And that's the countries that I call the declining world, because I think they are going to decline because of that.
[00:40:16] Mizter Rad: Are you sure they're going to decline from where they are now?
Or are they going to grow, but much lower? Cause I feel like, I think I see your point, but I don't think that the U S or at least this is my observation and at least my, the way I see it moving forward, I definitely agree that Europe, a great part of Europe and the U S is, it's stagnating. And like you said, they're they seem to not be worried about innovating and attracting the right talent or treating people as good as, let's say, somewhere in a place like Singapore. But it doesn't mean that they will decline necessarily, maybe relative to the others that are rising, but not relative to where they are now. You know what I mean? I don't want, in my opinion, I don't want people to think, Oh, yeah, the U.
S. Is going to go down and it's going to be as poor as, I don't know, somewhere. Okay. Right now in Africa. It's not gonna happen.
[00:41:19] Alex Recouso: I I partially agree. I would say that I don't know whether you know some place are going to decline or just, grow slower. Like you were saying, if you grow slower relative to other places, then, 100 years from now, you would be way worse.
That being said, I'm generally optimistic for humanity. I'm optimistic for technology. So I really think that, 100 years from now, Humanity is going to be generally on a better place than it is now. But also you have to take into account, things like crime, drug addiction hyperinflation that we are seeing in the Western world.
And that might cause these countries not even to grow as lower, but even to decline. But I would agree that on a long enough time span, these countries are going probably to be better just because of the sheer progress of technology.
[00:42:14] Mizter Rad: I see, I see your point. Tell me something. What? So I want to go back to the to the passports concept and it's and this is just a very basic punctual question.
Is the passport of any of this Caribbean islands like San Lucha, Antigua, Barbuda, Dominica? Giving you good access to countries around the world to, let's say, the more developed countries? How good are these passports?
[00:42:45] Alex Recouso: Yeah they have really good visa free access. For example St. Lucia's passport has access to 145 countries visa free. And they keep getting more and more access. For example, this week Canada just announced that they are going to be visa free travel to I believe St. Lucia, St. Kitts and Nevis, and Antigua and Barbuda. These countries keep developing their relations with other countries and they keep getting visa free travel for their citizens.
So yeah, they are, they're pretty good in that space.
[00:43:19] Mizter Rad: Interesting. So you have two companies, Baseflow and Network State Company, or you're one of the founders of these two companies.
[00:43:27] Alex Recouso: It is actually the same, the same company.
[00:43:29] Mizter Rad: Ah, it's the same company.
[00:43:31] Alex Recouso: Yeah. And Baseflow is the product of, of the Network State Company.
[00:43:35] Mizter Rad: Okay. Okay. I understand. Okay. So Net, Network State Company is the mother company of, of Baseflow. Baseflow is a product, basically. Yeah, and the Network State Company, tell me more about it. Why did you decide to do it like that, that structure?
[00:43:54] Alex Recouso: Basically, because we think Baseflow is great, short term. And we can really do a very specific job with Baseflow that is a streamline in this citizenship by investment programs. But like we were discussing on a global landscape, there are many other things that we could do. And we mostly cannot talk about right now. But, we have like bigger plans for the Network State Company.
And we don't, we wanted to, keep Baseflow as a product because we think it's great to solve that very specific problem of the citizenship by investment programs. And help them become more efficient, faster and better generally. But the Network State Company, has bigger plans.
[00:44:35] Mizter Rad: Interesting. You don't want to give me a little hint of what kind of plans, you know, you know, you know what I'm concerned about. I mean, I already told you, I like the idea of citizenship by investment programs. I do think that it would be even more awesome if this would be more available for other people that don't have the money, maybe, but they have the talent or they, they don't have the criminal records.
They have the talent, they have the skills.
[00:45:03] Alex Recouso: I agree. And also like, you know, uh, I think it's important to think about it. Like I was saying, you know, on innovation lifecycle trend. So obviously we are super early. And right now it's only available for the, high end of the market. But as we progress in the industry and, the innovation matures, probably we will see more offerings. For example, I'm aware that Montenegro is developing a talent visa that is not only, hey, how much can you invest in the country, but it's more hey, what do you know that can help the country?
I think we're going to see more, more programs like, like those in the future. And it's going to be definitely interesting for people that, like you said, that don't qualify for these programs. But I like to think of countries as a market. And, most countries are de facto service providers.
So you pay something in taxes and you get something back in services and infrastructure and all of that. And also, if you think about it, the countries that are doing better right now are countries that Operate more as a company, than as a traditional country. So I definitely think that this market of countries will develop and we will see more offerings beyond citizenship by investment, but also residency programs, company incorporations and talent programs for these countries acting as competitors in the market, trying to attract sovereign individuals and global citizens.
[00:46:34] Mizter Rad: Do you think in this global market of countries, or as you call it, company countries, which is kind of, in your eyes, a very similar concept, do you think in this global market, there are countries that use different strategies and because of those strategies, they will be more successful in the years to come based on the current world situation?. And I ask you this because it's very different how China is run and how let's say the U. S. is run.
[00:47:08] Alex Recouso: Yeah, a hundred percent. And the only thing that I know is that probably, you know, the free market is the best way to determine which system is the best.
And definitely, there are countries have different strategies. You have China, then you have, for example the Scandinavian countries in Europe that have high taxes, but also have a lot of services. Then you have, other options that basically have very low taxes like UAE.
So you know, definitely that the countries will follow different strategies. And I think, in the long term, the best way to, to tell which strategy is the best is just see which country performs the best. And that's why I also think it's important that countries compete so we can find through free market new ways off of competing in this market and giving us better governance structures.
[00:47:59] Mizter Rad: So, uh, just want to mention something. The Network State Company adopts its name after the concept of Network States and for people that don't understand or haven't heard about this concept before the Network States is a concept that was first coined by Balaji Srinivasan, who is a crypto philosopher.
Look it up. Is quite popular out there online, and the Network States talks about a highly aligned online community with a capacity of collective action that crowds funds territory around the world and eventually gains diplomatic recognition from existing states, which basically means A country is built up online, a digital country, first digital community, and that eventually becomes a nation state or a physical country, a traditional country.
That's a very simplistic way of putting it, but that's where your company, that's, that's basically where the name of your company comes from. Is that correct?
[00:49:00] Alex Recouso: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually Balaji is one of our investors too, and we really liked the concept. We think it's really cool and yeah, we decided to name the company after it.
[00:49:10] Mizter Rad: Understood. All right. Okay. Tell me something just to wrap up before we go. And I want to go from theory to practice here because I think I love to think of a better world. And I always I'm also like yourself. I'm also positive about the future of humanity. I think we're as different to what a lot of stuff that is published in the media, I think we have a very good prospect of evolving into something much more prosperous in the next 50 to 100 years. But to get more practical here and, help people understand how they can use your service. Those people that are listening right now in Guatemala, in Colombia and Pakistan, no matter where. And maybe don't hold a VIP passport.
Like from the U. S. or Germany, and they're stuck in their territory. They're stuck in their country. What would you advise them to do? How can they use your service? If anything, what would you tell them?
[00:50:21] Alex Recouso: I would encourage them to just go to baseflow.xyz, our website, and check the programs that we have available.
And, if they are a good fit for any of those programs, we would love to connect them with Countries that would love to, welcome them as a citizens. And, we would be super happy to help them become more sovereign, get more passports and essentially become freer.
[00:50:51] Mizter Rad: How do you see, just to wrap up, Alex, how do you see the world from your perspective, from the immigration slash passport slash citizenship slash sovereignty perspective?
The world in 50 years from now.
[00:51:08] Alex Recouso: So I think that more and more people that are, global citizens and that want to be sovereign individuals are going to probably acquire multiple passports. And we're going to see for example, Network States like Afropolitan, from Eche attracting people and, citizens basically of multiple nation states and Network States that help them in different dimensions of their lives.
For example, they have a Network State where they have great leisure and they love to have fun there. And then they have a nation state where they incorporate companies. And then another special economic zone where they like to live and pay taxes. So I think we're going to see a fragmentation of the consumers of the market, if that makes sense. And, we're going to see how people instead of being born, growing, incorporating companies, paying taxes in one country, they're going to split these aspects of their lives among different countries and essentially become, the facto sovereign individuals and have more leverage to make these decisions. So, yeah, that's, that's where I see it going. And I think it's very exciting to, to work for it.
[00:52:23] Mizter Rad: That's great. That's great. Alex, it was a pleasure to have you here in the Mizter Rad Show. I'm very grateful that we managed to talk and I give you a thumbs up for what you're doing.
I wish you a lot of success. And let's keep in touch.
[00:52:36] Alex Recouso: It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me. It was great.
[00:52:39] Mizter Rad: Boa tarde
[00:52:40] Alex Recouso: WBoa tarde
