17. Afropolitan - a new African nation is born

Episode 17. Afropolitan - a new African nation is born === [00:00:00] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: when I moved to the us, I got to witness young African immigrants who migrated to Silicon Valley area and then started to earn like Silicon Valley salaries. And so what she then saw was the evolution of those people over time, when they first came, they were mostly operating from scarcity. Over time, they started to evolve. You now have a situation where they, they've discovered other hobbies. They've discovered other things that fulfill them as human beings. Maybe they like to write. Maybe they're poets, it's like they're literally exploring their entire holistic human self. These same people though in Africa and even in Latin America, are not able to think through that because they're living and surviving day to day. Like there are so many other levels for you to unlock internally, but you're not able to do that if you have not eaten, you're starving, you're surviving. [00:01:05] Mizter Rad: Hello, beautiful humans. When I left home at the age of 17 and started traveling the world, I realized how unlucky it is to be born in a developing nation. I was not aware that my Colombian passport was going to be an obstacle for moving around freely. I was sent multiple times into the back rooms of airports for double checks. I was even denied jobs multiple times. I was then, some time ago, mistakenly arrested for supposedly drug possession. Then I quickly realized and understood that the policeman assumed I was a drug dealer when he saw my passport. Luckily for me and millions of other, quote unquote second and third class passport holders, a new movement is being born. This is called Digital Nations, or as the crypto philosopher Balaji Srinivasan calls it Network States. Eche Emole is joining me today to talk about Digital Nations. He is the founder of Afropolitan. First, an online African community with common values and goals, and then later on the idea is to formalize and materialize this community physically on land. Eche Emole, Beautiful name, brother. How are you doing? [00:02:22] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Doing good. Doing good, Mario, thank you so much for having me. [00:02:25] Mizter Rad: Eche, why don't we start by explaining people what a network state is and how you go from being a digital nation to a physical nation? [00:02:33] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah, so a network state is a highly aligned online community with a capacity for collective action that's able to crowdfund territory around the world. And eventually gain diplomatic recognition from preexisting states. So I think the best framework for people to think through this is what does the internet enable us to be able to do today? Right? We've been able to start new companies on the internet. So think Facebook, Google, Stripe, YouTube etc. We've been able to start new currencies on the internet. Think Bitcoin or just cryptocurrencies in general. This is internet money. It didn't always exist. The question now that we're asking is, can we start a new country on the internet, right? And how is this possible? And so the idea behind this is what is the, the internet today enables us to organize around shared values at scale, right? So imagine if Facebook was a country with its own cryptocurrency, but this time the new Facebook won't be social network with an online passive community. It'll be a digital country with shared purpose and values organized with its own governing currency. So that's, that's the, in a nutshell, is how, um, what a network state is. Network state, deferring from a nation state, because nation states are clearly defined physical borders, right from day one. But in this definition that we're going with is it's an online community first, and then when you reach critical mass, you replicate in the physical. So there will be a physical element to this, but you start first by dealing online community first and then you replicate in the physical after reaching critical mass. [00:04:18] Mizter Rad: All right. And how do you, or how did you come up with the idea? I know Balaji has talked about it. And he has even written a book called Network States. He now even has a podcast where he interviews people around the topic of network states. But how did you guys, the team behind Afropolitan, come up with the idea? [00:04:41] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah, so I think the best way to even understand Afropolitan's journey, so think about it in three phases. Phase one of Afropolitan is an organization I started while in law school in San Francisco. We catered to the African diaspora, through events, right? So think Afro Beach events, concerts, and festivals. A significant highlight of what we achieved during that period was something called the year of return that happened in Ghana in 2019, where we, we were able to generate about $2 worth of economic activity and we helped facilitate about a million plus people from the diaspora heading to Ghana in 2019. And so phase two then starts in 2020 where we were looking to reload the year of return. But then Covid happens, right? Covid decimate the entire in real life events industry. And then we were forced to pivot into media, through the social audio app called Clubhouse. So in Clubhouse between I and my co-founder, we were able to build communities under about 200,000 plus people collectively, right? Phase three then starts in April, 2021 when Balaji Srinivasan, he's the former CTO of Coinbase, he releases this article called How to Start a New Country. And in the article he advocates for this idea of a network state. And I remember reading it and being so fascinated by it because I could see the the outlines of what he was talking about because I I, I've lived it, right? I've, I'm somebody who's part of the diaspora. And, but there was a particular quote in the article where he says: because the brand new is unthinkable, we fight over the old. And I remember just feeling very gripped by that particular quote because it, I felt like it encapsulated what I felt like in, in navigating the world, even from a place of being an African. It was like, why are there these rules that just consistently keep us back and how can we transcend them? Right? And so for the rest of the year, from April up to the, uh, December I red-pilled my way into web three, learning more about crypto, about blockchain, about NFTs, about DAOs. What this new technologies could actually help us unlock at scale, right? And so come December 23rd, I'm in Nairobi, Kenya. I wake up at 5:00 AM. I'm pacing the the room for about an hour. My partner is asking like, Hey, what's wrong? I'm like, look, I know how I would look at someone who's about to tell you what I'm about to tell you. But just know I'm not crazy, but I think we need to start a new country. And she's like, wait, what? I was like, yes. I finally get and see how a network state can be possible. It's going to be a lot of work. We're going to have to execute really, really well. But I, I think that when we do get to that, it will, it will en enshrine our freedom in code, right? And so we set about, um, developing the four phases for this master plan, right? Phase one for us was actually building out the network. The importance of this was we wanted to attract the best of the best across Africa and the diaspora, and also allies as well, right? And within this network, we will, we will draw from the art, finance, tech, media, sports, energy, et cetera, right? You're really building a great group of folks who are aligned from a values and mission perspective. But you are helping to grow that network and creating your own network effects within that network, right? And so we were going to seed that network, with Afropolitan passports in the form of NFTs. These NFTs would serve as identities for folks within the network and they'll be on chain, right? And they'll be transparency and accountability in that from day one. Phase two for us was something that we called government as a service. Our whole idea was we wanted to be able to create a super app that would cater to our citizens where we would facilitate payments for goods and services using the Afropolitan currency, right? We would also be able to do things like self-sovereign id. You'd be able to send money back home. The diaspora price sends home almost 17 billion each year. So the idea was how do we facilitate that within our own ecosystem? And that's phase three. Phase three for us is what we're calling the minimum viable state, which is how do you do we build up the credibility needed to be viewed as a country one day, right? The idea behind that is as you go over time, you're laddering up that credibility as you go. So, so you're, you're, you're, you're focusing on getting diplomatic recognition in one day. Right? And so, um, in September of last year, we got recognized by the New York Stock Exchange as the first ever internet country for the African diaspora. The idea is, look at this two, 200 year old institution that's recognizing us. Tomorrow it might be the United Nations. And, and they, they have, they have credibility, right? And also even today, Afropolitan provides visa-on-arrival services for four African countries, Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Tanzania. If you have ever had to go through the services provided by our actual governments for these services, it is, is horrible. It's actually really terrible. Sometimes a lot of people run into roadblocks and so what we then provide is a layer of efficiency where if you come through us and a Afropolitan citizen, we make sure and guarantee that you get the visas that you're looking for. And we're going to be laddering up and adding other services as we go. Phase four is the land piece, right? You asked me how does this, how will this fit in from the land? We, we want to, um, innovate on that as well. Today, when you think about a nation state, which you have is a a physical country with its four corner borders, but we want to innovate on that. For Afropolitan. For Afropolitan, we're going to combine two concepts together, right? It's, we want our borders to stretch across the entire world. How would that work? We wanna combine two concepts together. One is an embassy, and the other one is a Chinatown. And an embassy, an embassy is a sovereign territory in a host government. So take for example, the US Embassy in in the uk for example. It's a sovereign territory in a host government. We wanna add a Chinatown to that because in Chinatowns they have their own post office, their own mall, their own banking, their own just, you know, Little ecosystem, right? We want to combine that to an embassy and for, it'll be an embassy plus a Chinatown, which will give us a sovereign Afro town. So then let's zoom out, right? You're an Afropolitan citizen. You're able to navigate the world with your Afropolitan passport. You're able to make payments for goods and services using the Afropolitan currency with our super app. And you're able to gain physical entry into Afro towns sovereign Afro towns located across the entire world of major cities. And that's the vision for what we're building at Afropolitan. [00:11:23] Mizter Rad: That sounds super exciting, Eche, and there's definitely a lot to unpack here. Let me go back and break this down piece by piece. Okay. So if I understood correctly, phase one is you guys started building a network of mainly the diaspora of Africans around the world. And specifically in your case, you started with people maybe in the Bay Area, organizing parties. And then when the pandemic started, you move on to the online ecosystem. And grew your community there. Then phase two comes in and you say, you know what? Let's try to help this community and let's offer something that you call government as a service on an app. So now you're building an app where you'll offer different kinds of services that normally a government, a traditional government would offer on a normally very inefficient way. Then phase three comes in, you say, And you start talking about the minimum viable state, which is, if I understood correctly, trying to build credibility as a country, as a new country. And then, later on you say, well, now we wanna buy land. Have Afro towns around different parts of the world where people have the possibility of having these two situations. On the one hand, the sovereign entity of an embassy. And on the other hand, the ecosystem of a Chinatown, which you will call Afro Town. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what I got so far from your answer. What I did not get is what you mean with minimum viable state. What exactly is the minimum viable state? And as a new country, how do you actually gain credibility or recognition from other entities that have been around for sometimes hundreds of years? [00:13:13] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: So I would say the best way to think about it is, um, let's use Amazon as an example, right? I don't know if you have used Amazon services. So today what that flow looks like is when you first signed up for Amazon, they were maybe doing books, right? And then they expanded into other services. And today what you have is Amazon Prime. where if you subscribe to Amazon, you're able to get Aven services that include maybe same day shipping or two day shipping, right? Whereas before, in a different world, you probably have to wait almost a week to receive some of your shipping, right? And so what has happened over time is Amazon has established this layer of trust for uh, and and security for Amazon Prime members. And so what happens is they've laed up their credibility as they go. So when they move into a new market like healthcare, they know that their subscribers are more than likely going to stick with them because they've shown a level of competence and execution in these other different verticals that they've gone into. It's the same way with nation state building and network state building, right? From a government perspective, what we're saying is Afropolitan will be a better trusted governance structured than the ones that we have in Africa or for Africans globally today, right? And so how you ladder up that credibility from a minimum viable state perspective is in tech, it's called minimum viable product. Right? But, and from a governance perspective is minimum viable state. What are the things that you can do today that ensure trust and accountability and transparency for the citizens, citizens that you have where when you execute at such a high level, they come to trust you with even more responsibility. So for example, I gave you example of the visa arrival things. You can imagine another world where it's even like moving payments around, right? These are pain points that affect acutely a lot of us across Africa, right? And it's like, how do we, uh, collectively as a society, which is what I call view, actually solve for these issues, where you're now attracting potential citizens who are like, you know what, these are what difficult citizens are enjoying. I want to enjoy that as well. And my current citizenship with this current state is not up to par. Right? And, and that's, that's the way to think about it from a minimum viable state perspective. But even while doing that, you also want to be building partnerships and ally. Aligning yourself with other credible institutions, right? Where, for example, the New York Stock Exchange could be one institution that says: Hey, we're recognizing you tomorrow. It could be also the United Nations. But you can even go for other international organizations like the World Economic Forum or even the Red Cross. Their partnerships are out there for you, where folks are like, well, if these other people are aligning themselves with this community, that also gives you, credibility as you, as you go. That's the way to think about it. [00:15:57] Mizter Rad: Wait, wait, what do you mean you went to the New York Stock Exchange? What do you mean they recognize you? What does that mean? How, how did that exactly happen? [00:16:07] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah. So we, we got to ring the bell. We got broadcasted, I think 140 million people who who tune into the CNBC um, forecast. Right? And I think that idea is, remember, we're started off as a small community and this is what we're looking to achieve, but you're also looking to get credibility from institutions. So we got to close the, um, close the, the New York Tech Exchange for that day by ringing the bell ringing in the closing bell, right? They, they, they put out a press release saying like, they're recognized us as the first ever internet country for the African diaspora. Right? This is, this is also an audio releases on, on their social media as well. So again, it's, it's the perception and the validation that comes from that as well. Specifically where today how country recognitions actually work is you are recognized by your fellow countries as a country, right? That's still the process. State recognition, it's, Hey, how did America get recognized as a state or as a country? It was the French right, who said, Hey, we recognize you as a country and this is official paperwork. That's the way to think about that as we grow. So you're getting official type paperwork from these, these organizations first, and then as you ladder up, you're getting official type paperwork from the actual countries themselves. They recognized you with all the full diplomatic rights. [00:17:28] Mizter Rad: That's fantastic. To be honest, I thought ringing the bell was only for companies that were going public... [00:17:34] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: no, no, no, no. It's, no, it's not. They're, they're, they're different initiatives that they, that they take moving ring in the bell. And so it's not only for, for companies that IPO. No, I, I I also assume the same, but it's not. [00:17:48] Mizter Rad: Good to know. Good to know. Eche, let me go back to the following thought. When I look at nation states, the traditional countries that we live in right now... you know, I was born in Colombia. I didn't have a chance to choose where I was born. Obviously, I didn't choose my passport either. So in a way, I was born already with a lot of challenges compared to someone born or holding a passport of the US or Germany. So I guess my question is, what do you think it needs to happen for us? And I wanna call it second or third class passport holders, to start looking at nations or countries, almost like a service provider, where we can all opt out anytime we want. I'll give you an example here in Germany if you aren't satisfied with the electricity company that provides you with energy, you can just call them up and change to another provider. Easy. Wouldn't it be cool to do the same with your citizenship in a way? The same way as you change your electricity provider, you can just change your citizenship simply because if you don't agree with what your local government policies are at the moment, why should you keep paying taxes there? Why should you not just be able to move around, go and support another nation or government that is doing something that is more aligned to your values? [00:19:07] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah, so I mean, take for example, the recent, the recent US elections, right? You have a situation today where you have a country that's deeply divided, about 70 million people voted for Trump, and then you have 80 million people who, or so who voted for. For Biden, right? But you have a nation that's dividing, cuz clearly we're not all the same values here. And so what we're proposing with this whole network state idea is you deserve to live and, and engage and with a community of people who have your, your particular shared values and purpose, right? And then that way, if, if this is what you're into, these are your values, go people, that community that speaks to your values and then let your services also reflect that as well. Right? And so what you have today is a situation. I'm, I'm someone who is Nigerian born and, um, we were able to definitely move to the us. But right now, right, it's like there are a lot, so many people who are stuck just by luck of being born into a particular country and wherever, unlucky policies that have affected or kept them down for so long. Right? Policies that also, by the way, are not always self-inflicted. They've also just been, this is how this, these were the rules that were set in place before, before a lot of us got a chance to come to the table, right? And so a lot of these rules have now compounded over time where people don't even remember why these are put in place. But now we still suffer the consequences of these policies over time, right? And so now for folks like us who are in the, from emerging markets or emerging um, countries, we now get the opportunity to ask why, who made these rules? These rules don't apply to us. They keep us down. And why should we continue, continue to abide by them or even to uphold them, right? And so for us, it's, it's a, it's a re-imagination of the world where we're going back to first principles. Knowing what you know now, especially because of the, the information overload that's out there, how would you construct a new society that speaks to your values, your purpose, and, and some sort of people you want to live around as well? Right? And, and the tools exist for us to build this today. I don't think this is an easier conversation to have 10 or 15 or even 20 years ago, but today at as it exists, because now we know the technology is borderless, right? You can literally have the same code apply for what you're working in, in Germany, work for you as well in the us, work for you as well in Ghana, right? So the tech is borderless, right? Why can't our, our, our movement and and citizenship also be borderless as well? And that's the way we're thinking about it. But I agree, I agree with you. It's like, I think for me, what I just came to the way it is set up for us to navigate the world today, it's not sustainable, right? Mm-hmm. . And we're in a situation where we're powerless. We have no dignity, we are treated like shit. Excuse my language. And it's like that has to change within my generation. Like it's no longer acceptable. And the excuses or the reasons for why it is so are just completely unacceptable anymore. Which is why the technology stack that we used was one of types of blockchain because we wanted to encode our freedom, in code. We wanted to enshrine it, in code. Where it's like from day one, you know, this is how you can opt in and then this is also how you can opt out, right? And it's right there for everyone to see from day one. It shouldn't come later on. It should be literally be in the foundation of your documents and, and smart contracts from day one once you opt into an Afropolitan citizenship. [00:22:35] Mizter Rad: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with this. Have you thought about encrypting your constitution as well? [00:22:42] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah. That's what, that's, that's the, that's the plan. That's the plan. Because I think, um, like folks tend to underestimate how much, cause I, I know bi Balaji always says, what came first, the nation or the state. And most people tend to think it's a state first because they're, they're born into governments. But actually the nation comes first, right? The nation is the community that has this shared values, shared purpose. If you think back to the American founding fathers, they took so long to put out the Federalist papers, put out like articles that advocated for the why. Why are we doing this? What is our reason? And I think we also drew inspiration from some of their articles as well, especially from Anthony Hamilton. Where in Federalists one, he basically says, is it possible for societies of men to, build a new governance structure through reflection and choice? Or are we forever destined, depend on our political constitutions through accident and force. And so for us, that became our own why at Politan, which is no modern day nation state in Africa was created by reflection and choice. It was mostly through accident and force. And so for us, it, it's reimagining a world in which we come together as a society of people who have shared values and purpose, and we reflect and then choose a path that works for us, right? And then that way we can literally go back and show folks, this was our thought process. These were the mistakes that were made. These things are all documented, but you get to it. It's all transferring and accountable from day one. I think that that's the way, that's the way we're thinking through it. [00:24:17] Mizter Rad: And do you think this is gonna happen in your lifetime, or do you think this will take longer to develop? [00:24:23] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: No, I see it, I see it happening in our lifetime because I, I, I think the world is slowly waking up to the fact that like, nation stations are broken. And I, and Covid was one of those black swan events where if you lived in a, I mean for the first time you saw the US not step up in, in a leadership format, right? And you saw maybe smaller countries have better policies than even the us. And so for the first time you start to see like our nation states really, um, built for this new era that we're stepping into. Because people tend to, to tend to not know, but they should stay, haven't always existed in, in the history of mankind. They're re they're, they're, they're more recent phenomenon, right? And so for us, we're saying, what if there's a new, a newer way for us to navigate the world in this new era that we're coming into? and what would that look like, right? And so we, like you have a situation in the US today where there's a potential for civil war. If you keep having this for 10, where it's like Republicans or Democrats and there's 70 million people or 75 million people who feel this way, and there's 80 million people who feel this way there. I remember the last us, I mean we also saw the January 6th riots, right? You're literally in a, in a power powder keg situation where they're, the other side has just as many numbers of people and they have shared values on purpose. So you, you have to ask a situ yourself a question, do we still want to be in a country where. You have this high level of polarization, or is it, is it a better split where it's like, Hey, red states, maybe you go do your own thing. Right? And this is how, and then folks who come here know that this is how you guys operate. No problem. And then blue states go do your own thing. And then the folks who come here also know this is how you operate. No problem. Because most of the people within this area abide and, and have the same shared values and purpose. And, and that, that, that's, I see the world slowly evolving into that versus what we have now, which is a scarcity of resources and land. And then everyone's forced to commingle, right? And then you now have a potential for violence breaking out as well. So I mean, I, I think, I think it happens within our lifetime. I really do. I think it, it even accelerates, like, I don't know if you're following, um, all the financial crisis that's been happening in the US this past weekend. It's like, I think it accelerates, these sort of things accelerate when you start to ask yourself like, wait, wait. , why is my money government back in the first place? Right? Right. Why, why is the Fed the one making these decisions? Why can't this be a decentralized financial institution where we all know the rules from day one? And these choices are reflected in code and smart contracts from day one? Because right now what you have are, the Fed will say one thing and actually not abide by it. Right? . And then you don't have a situation where banks in and, and companies are failing because they're initially following the guide guidelines of the Fed. That's supposed to be the authority on this. And for all intents of purposes, they're actually lying . It's just what it is, right? So they're telling you one thing. You, you, you, you adjust your guidance based on what they've said officially. And then they do the next thing and you now have to revert back. I'm like, that's not, that's not sustainable. And I think for. in the history of Mankin. I don't think government backed money has worked for us. When you, when you evaluate it from a fiat perspective as well as it can, and today you have a situation where even in emerging markets, especially in Africa, where systemically locked out, right? So we're not even able to get access to some financial instruments. Like PayPal probably has blocked half of Africa, but you have creators there who are creating, and they can't get paid. Who makes these rules? You know what I mean? [00:28:00] Mizter Rad: Why do you think that happens? Why do you think PayPal, which is I find super crazy... why do you think PayPal is blocking a lot of creators in Africa? Why can't they use PayPal? [00:28:11] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: They, they'll tell you, they'll tell you it's because they're worried about fraud and then they're worried about these issues. But then, but then when they, when you ask them, okay, pull up the top 10 countries on your platform where fraud happens, and tell me which African countries are in the top 10. They, no one answers you, right? And, and the answer, and I'm like, so are you blocking these other countries that are on your top 10? No. Why? Because they have influence. They have power, they have leverage. And so what they're basically saying is, since Africa is basically 2% of world gdp, we can block all of these Africans from accessing our services cuz it's not worth the, the, the, the work and we don't even feel it. Right? It's not going to be anything that really impacts our balance sheet. But you're, you're by making that choice though, literally preventing a lot of Africans from earning on the internet and being able to build their way to prosperity from those channels. Right. And so again, we're now forced to build our own tools, which is fine, but what I'm basically saying by bringing up these examples is the way the world is currently set up for people who are from, from af, just from emerging markets in, in, in it, in its entirety. We have to jump through so many loopholes and we're basically playing the immigration Olympics. It's basically become American or die trying. And that's what we're trying to change because that's not a sustainable approach cuz America or the West is not going to give everyone visas from Africa or from Latin America. Right? So we now have to figure out a way to build up our own systems and if that involves us building up our own financial and technical systems from the ground up that help enshrine our freedom and access and code, then so be it. [00:29:51] Mizter Rad: Okay, Eche, now that you touch the topic of Africa, when you look at Africa today and all of its current social and political issues, but also the opportunities for example, in terms of demographics, I think Africa is in very good shape. What do you think network states can provide Africans that nation states can't? [00:30:12] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah, so I think for us, the way we, the way we're looking at it is, I'll give you an example. Just recently in Ghana the currency got devalued by almost half, right? So you're Ghanaian citizen you've worked twice as hard, you're stayed up your money and you wake up one day, your currencies devalued due to poor government policies and execution. That sucks. That's terrible. Right? And so and so, that's not to talk about other policies that affect your employment, high unemployment rates. You know, these are all choices from stemming, from inept governments. High levels of corruption. Their inability to just execute. It's poor, it's terrible. We can't keep waiting on the fact, which is why Balajis article was so powerful for me. We can't keep waiting on, on the fact for these governments to get their stuff together, right? It's, it's not sustainable. What would it look like for those of us who want better and who want to really execute a high level to come together through the internet, to organize ourselves, right? And then have a capacity for collective action. So if we say, Hey, we're gonna go build this road, it gets done, and, and then we, we can literally show this is how much we raise the road. These are the milestones and the proof of work that shows as these roads are getting built, it gets done. And so for us, we now start to take that to its logical conclusion, which is, you have a situation today where the internet exists with digital services. You imagine a world in which you're an Afropolitan citizen, you want to get access to healthcare. Maybe Afropolitan provides free healthcare to all citizens. Or even free education to all citizens. And while utilizing the technology, that enables us to keep some of these costs low, right? Because trust me, the, like the Nigerian education system is not thinking today about how to incorporate AI and to any of us, any of its educational initiatives, right? But for us at afropolitan, because we're, we're so focused on enabling our success with technology, right? We, we embrace new technologies as they come. We're not folks who are scared to adopt new technologies, especially if they serve our communities at a high level, right? And so what we're now saying is think through those services that nation states struggle with providing. And for example, lemme just giving an example. The U S D M V, it's a horrible service for so many of us who deal with it, right? And then when you start asking them like, Hey, why can't you upgrade to this new technology stack that allows us to do this? They start to tell you about the, the number of bureaucratic loopholes that they have to jump through to get it done. Meanwhile, the majority of... DMV is, is a Department of motor vehicles is where people go to their license. Ok. And it's like a horrible process for a lot of Americans, right? And so if they were able to put it to a vote real quick, actuals, like, look, these are the technology stacks that we can actually adopt and this is what it would unlock for for you as a, as citizens. Most people will choose to go with more convenience, but we're stuck in these systems because of the bureaucracy. Right. But I just wanna bring it back to just specifically the network state versus nation state perspective. One area is the money aspect of it, just payments, right? Imagine a world in which you're an Afropolitan citizen and you're able to use facilitate payments in an easy format. The the principle guide behind that is you should be able to send money to anyone anywhere in the world, and they receive it within seconds. But today what we have is a situation where if I wanna send money from Nigeria to Ghana, it first has to go to uh, New York first before it gets to Ghana. And then the fees get taken up on that. And I'm, and gonna ask who makes these rules? Who do these rules benefit? It, doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense. What we're saying is, instead of us trying to fight the whole traditional financial system, because that's a longer fight, why don't we just build up our own technology stack and our own financial system utilizing crypto or blockchain? And it's, it's that way from day one. It doesn't matter what struggles you have from, from within cause they, they're always going to be struggles. But what you know is that the end goal for this, it's to make sure that you no longer have to rely on other folks who don't have your own context, who don't really care for your own context. But they're middle men in a situation that they no longer have some profits from. And they were able to profit from that back in the day because they had information arbitrage, right? And so that arbitrage is closed up because we now all have access to the same information, but nobody tells you why things are still the same way as they are, right? Because it is compounded over time and people are just used to, this is how it's been, this is how it's always going to be. I'm like, but this doesn't serve our people, right? We're systematically locked out from every facet of the world in terms of like scaling. And it makes no sense that what it basically does for people like me is to say, okay, you know what? You might figure out the game, but you're the exception. The vast majority of people that come from where you come from are still going to be stuck in poverty. And that's unacceptable. [00:34:56] Mizter Rad: I'm definitely with you, Eche. It just doesn't make sense that to transfer money from Nigeria to Ghana, it has to go through a bank in New York and therefore pay some middle man fees to a bank that has nothing to do with the region. As you say that, I think that's crazy- but in any way, Eche do you sometimes fear that this is so engraved in the culture that it is super hard to change? And let me explain what I mean with that. When I talk to my friends in Germany and we compare both cultures, the Latin and the North European culture, we always come to one same conclusion. And that is, you know, Latinos on the one hand, they like to leave things for tomorrow. Manana manana. And they love to go with the flow. They don't plan things really. The Northern Europeans, on the other hand, they like to structure their days and they like to plan ahead. And I feel like some Africans are more similar to Latinos in that way of not really planning and going with the flow. And that part of the culture, behavior mentality may also be affecting our economic output. Do you feel that this is something that is very hard to change and therefore we would need maybe 2, 3, 4 generations to actually make a real change in the lives of Africans? [00:36:24] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah , so, so I would say like if you read the Afropolitan manifesto, right, I think from day one what that manifesto was, was trying to do was help us filter out for the type of people we're looking build it in this phase one, right, which is we're looking to attract builders, but even beyond that, it's, you have to have a good type of mindset for what we're trying to achieve. And, and what I would say to you is I think similar, the same, same thing can to Africa, right? Is the Germans are able to be where they were today cuz of the resources they're also able to acquire over time. So it's the role that compounding plays over time, right? So you have a situation where this is a country. You know, back in the day, they used to have a hundred years European war. Europe has been through a lot of stuff over time. If you know history, like I'm talking about this, were like the, the original cannons and savages, they killed each other every day. Right? Like, so that's, it's not to say there are no wars in Latin America or... but at the scale that it happened in Europe? It is just ridiculous when you go through history. Right? And so you now have the people who were also able to, because of the environment too. Cause Latin America, also, even in Africa, we have warmer climates, right? We, we didn't necessarily need to leave our areas. There was a level of abundance that existed in our, yeah. In our situations, right? But Europe, Europe was also dealing with a lot of weather situations where they had, they didn't have enough, so they were dealing from scarcity. Right? And so let's go back in the history of time. Let's say Latin America had more abundance and Africa had more abundance. And you have a situation where Europeans are able to, they're literally dealing with scarcity a lot of the times, right? So what scarcity forced them to do was innovate, right? So you're not thinking through whether it's the ships or the guns or whatever, where they need to go to far, far away lands to get resources to bring back, which ended up being colonization, right? And so when it then came back, you have to understand when scarcity used innovation, it also leads to you having to plan accordingly. Because you have to realize like, if there's no food here, we starve , we die from plague, we die from fucking famine, all of that. So these were things that were in your history. So you, you, we shouldn't underestimate how the environment that you grow up in allows you to then have to think through life like this. But then the question to that then is, well, okay, now there's scarcity in Africa and then there's scarcity in Latin America, so why isn't that making us plan accordingly as well? I would then say that to that it's, that's why we're doing the work that we're doing right now. Which is, ideology of abundance allows you to realize that it is enough for all. You just need to actually come to the table to plan out and make it move accordingly. Right? Because as somebody who left Nigeria and I come and learned a lot of history, understanding the American perspective of understanding the European perspective, I start to see how these rules were set up to benefit them. Which is fine cuz people are selfish and then that's fine. But the, what we're now saying back to them is, it's time for us to eat now. Right? Because whatever arbitrage you had, we now know what the game is. We're now going to come to the table and really we negotiate everything. Right? And and it's up to you cuz it's not, it doesn't need to be violent, it's just really just saying, it's time for us to eat now because you guys have been eating for a while. It's time for other people to eat. Right? And, and it's, that's just, that's just a conversation. It doesn't need to be any more... much more complex than that. You guys have been able to build up wealth over generations, and the rest of us are, are having to start now today to do that. But from an Afropolitan perspective, it's, it's why it's imperative that the people we recruit in these early stages are the people who have a baseline of competence. They obviously have shared values and purpose with you, but you are, you're looking to attract the best of the best. And we have to be very clear in that, right? It's like, it's not something where you can just come and chill. You're literally coming in here and you're helping to build and contribute from day one. And that, that is the goal. And I think I do see, I, I do trust me, understand the challenge cuz I think the, the first challenge that we faced is one of mindset, which is, is this even possible? And why should we believe this is possible if there are no white people who've done it? Right? I've literally heard some people give us this feedback and I'm like, but that's the problem. We're so used to looking into the west for solutions. And then we'll come back to Africa and say: Hey, we're building an Uber for Africa, or the Airbnb for Africa, or the stripe for Africa. And it's like, no, why can't we also innovate from here and go out? I mean, in Israel they do, right? In other countries, they do Israeli startups think about ideas and, and think globally from day one, right? Because Israel is such a small market, so they can't even afford to just only cater to the Israeli market. So why can't we do that the same as Africans? Why don't we think that the world is also our, our oyster? And that's the narrative that we're trying to change with Afropolitan. [00:41:16] Mizter Rad: You know, it's funny, Eche, because when I mentioned this idea of network states and digital countries to people around me, they all thought it was impossible. Just as you mentioned. They said too idealistic. How idealistic do you actually think this is? And how do you think it would fit into the current world structure? And I wanna ask you this because when I look at the world today, it feels like governments or even some nation states are openly trying to rule the world and there's no shame there anymore. Maybe they're being more open about it than before. And in my personal experience, I kind of woke up and saw and said, oh shit. I thought I was living in a democracy. In a country that was led by, you know, this X or Y Prime Minister that its people would elect, but actually there seems to be a layer of politicians on top of that and maybe another and another, and another layer of world organizations and institutions that nobody really elects democratically and that we're not even aware of. Is this something that, that goes through your mind sometimes and is maybe concerning when building a new country? [00:42:31] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: So I think like when you decide to do what we are doing right, you, you also have to like . I mean, most founders are crazy or delusional anyway. There has to be a level of delusion in it. But I think you, you look towards history to ask yourself, okay, who are the other people who've. done things like this. I think one of the ones where we've even researched is just even the Israeli state, right? You have Jews who are in Dpar who basically came together, say, this is what we want to do. And it took them 50 years to get there, right? And this is 50 years without having the same technology or tools or even access that we have today that the internet provides to us. And then you have maybe the latest countries like South Sudan or just the, the countries that have, that have been around for the last 50 years that are newer countries, right? And then you also ask yourself, okay, like 20% of countries in the world today have a population of 1 million people, and below another 55% have a population of 10 million people and below. So you're not necessarily aiming to be China or, um, the US from day one. You can literally ladder your way up to that, right? You have countries that are small as 8,000 people, or we met the prime minister of AM Mun the other day. They have a population of 65,000 people, right? So these are, these are examples that exist within our lifetime. And so for us, the way we, we then look at it is, When you break everything into parts, these things already exist. And what we're doing at Afropolitan is just aggregating them together. So let's, let's go through the four phases : a network. You have many networks today. You have, you can be part of the American Express network. You be part of a country club. You can be part of, of just any different type of network. There are many networks that exist today that cater to specific members, right? So that's a network idea that already exists. So you're bringing that to the network state. When you're talking about our government as a service piece, you already have super apps. Look at WeChat from China. There, there's one in Singapore as well. Grab or geo, right? So you already have these that exists. So from a technology perspective, that already exists. So that can be replicated. Well, you don't talk about minimum viable state. You also have another example like the United Nations. It's literally, it's literally an example of an organization that has, that has state powers, but it's not an actual country yet, right? So it's a minimum viable state. It literally can do a lot of other things without actually being a country. Another example of that is also FIFA as an organization. These are organizations that are almost as powerful as nation states themselves. They build that level of power as well. So again, breaking down it, breaking it down into pieces. Now, when you talk about the land piece, which you, which you said, right, you already have embassies. They exist today. You also already have Chinatowns that exist today. The only difference is we don't have an embassy plus a Chinatown that exists today as a sovereign Afro Town. Right? So what we are now saying is, what we are doing with the network state principle is bringing these pieces together to form a whole new organism, which is the network state. So I, I don't even see this as being unrealistic. I see it as being actually way more realistic than people understand, because you already have the, the elements for success in each of them. The, the harder part is just bringing them together and, and making sure that they form a new living organism, which is the network state. Right? So from a community building perspective, we've already set out to do that. We put out 500 passports. We've minted 500 and 506 the last time I checked, right? And so you've had people who've bought into this and not just buying in by saying, Hey, I support this. They've bought in by saying I'm actually purchasing this passport from day one, which is, which is very different when you compare it to whether the Americans when begin to become a country, right? They only have papers. Right. And then they had maybe people, people showed skin in the game by maybe making donations or throwing the tea into the, into the Boston, into the Boston Water, right? But what you're saying in this new agent day is you can literally get buy-in from people to go accomplish this vision. And I'm so grateful that we've had folks who've really, who are really bought into the vision, and I'm coming along with on, on this journey with us. [00:46:25] Mizter Rad: So from what I understand, you got initial funding from some angels and some VCs, and you're also minting or selling these passports that you just talked about that will probably give you some cashflow for or to accomplish your mission. [00:46:41] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Exactly. [00:46:42] Mizter Rad: All right. And then going forward, how do you see this growing?. How do you want Afropolitan to make money? Enough money so that you can again, bring your mission forward and accomplish all your goals ? [00:46:56] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah, so I mean, there are a couple of revenue generating things, and there, there's obviously going to, there, there's a foundation arm for Afropolitan as well as the non, um, as a profit arm. But the way to think about that, in phase two, you have the super app that we're, we're pushing, right? And the idea with that is as you, as you circulate this currency around the economy, you can charge fees similar to how WeChat does, right? So if the WeChat comparison there is WeChat averages about $57 per user. So you can imagine a world in which you're, um, as, as members utilize the services that you offer you charge them a small fee for, so that, that's a revenue journey mechanism. But also just even members as members come in and people are buying your passports or, and after they're applied, if they get approved to be to citizens, they buy your passports that's one way. But you could also think through like these one community crowdfunding as well, which is what the, the, um, Israelites did for the state of Israel, right? Think crowdfunded for it as well. And that's the plan that's also, uh, uh, uh, uh, avenue that we can take. So there, there are multiple ways to gain revenue. At the end of the day, the, the one thing is our people are aligned to this particular vision that, that we are pushing and, and can we achieve it by consistently recruiting folks to join us on this mission, because that never stops. Cause you, at the end of the day, it's a borderless mission. It's not something that's just really good. It's only Nigerians or only only Africans in Africa. It's, it's literally the diaspora are allies and, and, and, and, um, people on the continent as well. [00:48:31] Mizter Rad: Okay, so we talked about the issue of sending money. If you wanna send money from Ghana, it has to go through New York. Same if you wanna send money from Buenos Aires to Madrid, it has to go through New York. So I understand that problem. But how are you solving that problem for Africans? And then on top of that, tell me what is the name of your Afropolitan cryptocurrency. And how is this really gonna generate revenue for this network state? [00:49:01] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Yeah, so we, we, we don't have an official name for the currency, but the way, the thing about it is there's an currency, right? And it's a, it's obviously going into a cryptocurrency. Um, and the way it, the way to think about this is, again, let's talk to what the problems are, right? So I already talked about the cross-border payments angle, and this is just in Africa, but also outside of Africa. You also have a situation in which the, the money that folks actually have in their local currency, Keep, keeps getting devalued, right? So there's no store of value even for the cash that you have. So these are things that literally keep us poor and in poverty, right? So even if you're working 10 times as hard, even if you're getting 10 times more revenue, the devaluation keeps keeping you, kneecapping you at knees every single chance that they get. And a lot of these issues are literally downs of poor government management period, right? So, cause the examples there, one of the things I would always ask is, is our dysfunction as a nation states in Africa, a feature or bug? Because if it's a bug, what it looks like is Vietnam and Singapore and Dubai, which were countries that were way below us as African states when we all got independence. But look at them today, right? When it's a feature, it looks like what Nigeria and, and, and, and other countries in Africa look like, because this is embedded in your foundation. When it's a bug, it's, Hey, we have good leaders. They've figured out a plan. Look at the UAE. Like Dubai was a sand desert in 1990. Look at Dubai today. Right? So these are the differences. When you compare and contrast and you say to yourself, okay, what are the things that they have done to ensure success? And what are some of the things we can borrow from them as well to achieve what we need to achieve? And so when it comes down to, um, the monetization part of it, it's saying, can the currency that we have act as a store of value? Can it act as one that you can send to anyone in the world and they receive it immediately in seconds? And are you able to do the currency? Now, say to yourself, let's say you have a wallet. We not know, you're not call citizen. Can you qualify for loans and not have to worry about being denied loans because of the color of your skin? Can you do refinancing on your mortgage and not have to worry about being denied that again, cause of the color of your skin. Which are issues we face as Africans globally. And also locally as well, but globally as well. So you start to see that again when you go to first principles, foundationally, their mechanisms that allow for wealth creation, games that we're not able to play because systematically we've been locked out of this game. And so for a few of us who are able to figure it out, it works. But for the vast majority of people, it doesn't work. Right. It's not there. Right. And, and our governments would rather be corrupt or, or, or do other things rather than actually help serve our people. Versus when you go to a place like the UAE or Singapore, you literally seek governments that care enough to want to pull their citizens to another level. And you see the benefits of that and, and the fruits of that over time, right? We don't have that today across. , right? There are very few spots that you can look to and say like, okay, you, you have a great government over here. They're doing the best that they can and they really actually care about the people. They, it's not, it doesn't exist. It literally doesn't exist. It's, it's, and that's what we're looking to change with the monetization. So the world that we're saying is this, you're an Afropolitan citizen. You're able to send money to another Afropolitan citizen anywhere in the world, in seconds. You're able to qualify for these loans. You're able to qualify. You're able to qualify for refinance. You're able to play wealth creation games utilizing this monetary system that we're actually building up. And you don't have to be worried about being systematically locked out of the global financial system because of where you happen to be born into. That, that is unacceptable. [00:52:48] Mizter Rad: That's super exciting. Definitely Eche, I don't know if you've heard about Liberland. It's this new country. [00:52:55] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: I've heard of them. [00:52:56] Mizter Rad: Yeah. Between Serbia and Croatia, and they're doing something comparable. They also have plans to have their own cryptocurrency, and there's actually also another project that I talked to, it's project manager called Satoshi Island. The guys are actually doing a super good job as well. In the island of Vanuatu. I have another podcast episode, actually. My first podcast episode was with Dennys from Satoshi Island. You guys should go and listen to it cuz it's pretty interesting. We talk about startup cities, network states, building new countries, new communities, and all with the help of web three and crypto currency and all these latest technologies. But in any case, I really applaud the courage Eche. I think really congrats, uh, because I think you probably get a lot of pushback and a lot of people not believing in what you're doing. Maybe thinking that you're crazy to build a new country in our times. Let me ask you one last thing, cuz I always like to understand the vision that my guests have in the far future. In terms of, in this case, building new countries or having countries interact with other countries in terms of, you know, contracts between them or trading agreements. Not only money flow, but also people's flow. So play it out in your head. A hundred years from now. Let's say is 2,110, or you know, 80, a hundred years from now, how do you see all this that we are seeing right now? That is sort of like a flourishing of a new era for creating new countries, in this case, digital countries or better said network states. How do you see this evolving? [00:54:44] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: I would encapsulate it under absolute human, human flourishing, right? And I'll give you an example as to what I mean by that. So when I moved to the us, we moved to California and specifically not in California where Silicon Valley is based. Right? And just by being there over the last 15 or 16 years, I got to witness young African immigrants who migrated to Silicon Valley area and then started to earn like Silicon Valley salaries, right? They're not rich yet. They, they're high earning, not rich yet. So they call 'em Henrys, right? But even within that context, you have a switch for the first time. A lot of them work, I mean, six figures at such a young age that their parents could only dream of like, it, it just wasn't happening, right? And so what she then saw was the evolution of those people over time, which was when they first came, they were mostly maybe operating from scarcity right? Which was, I don't know if I can afford this. I don't know if I can even eat this. I don't even know. It's the new environment over time, as they said, to take care of certain needs. they started to evolve, right? You now have a situation where all of these men, and also women will tell you like, Hey, I'm, I'm a plant dad. I'm a plant mom. They, they've discovered other hobbies. They've discovered other things that fulfill them as human beings. Maybe they like to write and they be like to, to read a book. Maybe they're poets, maybe, you know what I mean? It's like they're literally exploring their entire holistic human self, right? These same people though in Africa and even in Latin America, are not able to think through that because they're living and surviving day to day. That level of survival does something to your psyche as a human being, and you don't realize, like there are so many other levels for you to unlock in internally, but you're not able to do that if you, if you have not eaten, you're starving, you're surviving, right? And so what I got to see was these same African immigrants in the, in the Bay Area would now get along with other Africans. So Afropolitan started off like that. You now have a situation where the Ethiopias are getting along with the Eritreans. The Eritreans are getting along with the West Africans. And, and then everybody was getting along every, every sort of different African na nationality. And, and we would all laugh, we would all share in our joy. People would go out people would be struggling to put up their cards to, to pay for the entire meal for everyone, right? Because they, they just wanted to like, you know, to do that. And then you, you, you have a situation like that and you're like, wow like this is really how we are when we are moving from abundance, right? But when we go back to the African continent, when we're moving from scarcity, you start to see all our issues come up. There's tribalism, there's this, this, that, this, that. And you're like, right? Like we're not even, we don't really have issues with other folks. We just operate from scarcity so much that we think that we actually have embedded issues with. Or once there's abundance and people feel like there's one and enough, we start to see people's other higher selves come to play. So going back to, what do I see in like a 2080 or 2100, right? I see a young African born into the world. Let's say you're born into Rwanda, right? And you're able to navigate the world with your afropolitan passport anywhere in the world. Cuz traveling also is a benefit. But today for most of us, it's a luxury right? Or a privilege. We're not able to access it. you're able to go anywhere in the world. You're able to send money and receive money from anyone in the world in seconds. You're able to get access to to quality education, quality health, health insurance, quality, healthcare. You're just able to fully thrive, right? Absolute human flourishing. And why... why this is so important to me? Was when I moved from Nigeria to um, California, I got placed in a private high school where I was the only black kid. And one thing, those white kids that I saw and observed from them, one thing that they had in spade was audacity. I was coming from a situation where Nigeria, when we would take tests, if you got below a certain grade, you would get flogged or spent, right? And I remember the first test I take in high school. there was I, I think I scored a 98%, which was their A plus, but then the next kid's gonna be scored something like 70 or something, which was like a D or C or whatever it was, right? And I remember just anticipating that, wow, they're probably all going to get beaten or spanked. And nothing happened to them, right? And not only did nothing happen, when it was lunch break, these kids were jumping across the wall. They were jumping over the like, they were literally like just bouncing. Joyful. Like, oh, what are we gonna do this weekend? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it took me to later on in life to realize one thing, which was, when you've already won in life, there's no grade that can bring you down. That's number one. But number two, what these kids had was audacity for days. They didn't, they didn't think that their, their future was under threat because of a grade. They literally have this level of freedom to thrive that the rest of us are still looking to accomplish. And I'm like, look, that's what we need. I'm not promising a world in which everything is kumbaya, but that same level of freedom, that's same level of audacity, their worldview of how they approach the world is what we also need for our people to really unlock our own prosperity at scale. And so that's the, in a nutshell, what, what it would look like for me. [01:00:07] Mizter Rad: What a beautiful anecdote you just shared. Perfect to close this conversation, could not agree more. A future with freedom at scale. That sounds super promising. Eche, my man. It was a pleasure to have you in the Mizter Rad Show. I hope you guys keep up with the abundance mindset and keep engaging and inspiring as many people as possible. I think this movement of network states, digital countries, And actually fighting this injustice of classifying humans based on the place where they're born has to keep gaining momentum. And at some point, this injustice has to stop forever. I'll keep following and pushing. Thank you for your work. [01:00:51] Eche Emole from Afropolitan: Thank you so, so much. Thank you Mario. Thank you for hosting me. [01:00:54] Mizter Rad: Have a beautiful week ahead and see you soon, brother Chao. Chao.